Retired Episcopalian archbishop Desmond Tutu, the Nobel Peace Prize winner, sat down with me on board the MV Explorer for a wide-ranging conversation about South Africa's emergence from apartheid, his criticism of Israeli policies toward Palestinians, eradicating poverty and the "dehumanizing" effects two years of civil war in Syria is having on the wider world.
Q. How did South African people, after the 1994 election that ended apartheid, avoid bloodshed?
D.T.: By the skin of our teeth. Frederik Willem de Klerk [the seventh and last
president of apartheid-era South Africa], did a courageous thing and negotiated a
peaceful solution, even though he had no idea what would happen to white
people. But we knew any uprising by us would be crushed by the soldiers and
police.
Q. What was the
mission of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?
D.T.: The
Commission enabled offenders to come forward, admit their guilt and receive
amnesty. Nelson Mandela had the moral authority to say to people, 'Let's
forgive, there's no need for revenge.' For 37 years, Mandela had been at the helm, and having served 21 years in prison made him even more credible. We did not want
retributive justice. We chose restorative
justice. There were three parts to the commission's work. The first phase enabled victims to tell their
story. Second, offenders confessed their
politically motivated crimes and were granted amnesty. Third, the victims, for
the sake of living in a peaceful country, learned to forgive. We knew our justice system would be
overloaded. We did not choose compensation or reparation.
Q. How would you
resolve the Palestinian-Israeli conflict?
D.T.: Israel
does not want another Holocaust so the world keeps reassuring them. I have
visited Gaza several times, the situation there is unacceptable. I am not anti-Semitic. I am anti-injustice. The tragedy is that Israelis are dehumanizing
themselves by acting the way they are. These young, armed Israeli soldiers
at checkpoints have the power of life
and death. I am not going to keep quiet
when I see injustice. I learned from the
Bible that our God tells us to help the downtrodden. A two-state solution,
guaranteed by a global unit, is the only solution.
Q. How about poverty
such as we saw in Burma?
D.T.: We all
need heroes and heroines. Aung San Suu Kyi has played a great role in appeasing
the military. Her father founded the
democratic movement. I am deeply
concerned about poverty. In the
capitalist system, competition and rivalry are the keys. You not only want to beat
your rival, you want to wipe the floor with him. Such behavior brings out the
worst in us. Societies such as in the
Nordic countries are increasingly egalitarian, moving in the right
direction. They are saying, 'We are
compassionate, we care for one another,' unlike [former U.S. Republican presidential nominee] Mr. Romney who said he did not
care about 47 percent of the population, calling them 'sponges.'
Q. What can be done about the situation in Syria?
D.T.: How is
it possible for a leader to bomb his own people? To have snipers on rooftops picking out
children to kill? The situation is
abominable. The U.N. is the only government
of the world, but is not doing enough. Kofi Annan gave up trying. We, the citizens of the world, are being
dehumanized with what is happening in Syria. They are part of our family.
Q. What do you think
of the newly elected Roman Catholic pope?
D.T.: I have
only two points of advice for the Catholic Church. One, make celibacy a voluntary requirement
for ordination. Two, allow women to
become priests.
Q. What advice do
you have for the young people on board this ship?
D.T.: Form
an anti-war organization. Tell the leaders of the world to act in a
peace-loving manner. Work toward a world
without nuclear power.
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